Original can be found at Message-ID: mpg.151f01d0a012b7e99896c2@news-server.woh.rr.com
You know Chris, I like to make my own observations about folks rather than let the opinions of others form my thoughts for me. But I have to ask, did you really think the comment that you didn't like the figure helped the poster? Yes, there are times that reasonable questions go unanswered here, sometimes folks are busy, and sometime there just isn't anyone on at the time that knows the answer. But why add to the mess? And undoubtedly there are umpteen threads here that wander off topic - but usually it's AFTER the question has been reasonably answered. So, it wasn't really useful to add your reply when the poster wanted some serious assembly help, and not a critique of the model, now was it?
I know you've had a rough start so far on the RGMW. It isn't a lot of fun getting flame up and down the news group for your opinion, but that happens to a lot of folks here.
Welcome to the RGMW. This is the news group that other news groups tell horror stories about (no joke.) But I've been here a good while (since 96/97) and I understand why. If they ever get the google/deja search for news groups going again properly look for some of the following 'winners' that have <ahem> graced us with their presence...
Alex "the lawyer / business mogul" Peters - this wanker was bound and determined to teach the RGMW why online stores that sold GW stuff at a discount would never make it. (Turns out this tard wasn't much of a business man, or a very good lawyer.. er liar. It eventually came out that he was some low level help at a Gaming store in Atlanta, and that he'd been talking to people at GW and finding out sensitive info about other store's sales figures, etc.) Needless to say, while great online discount gaming stores like TheWarStore, Brookhurst Hobbies, and TheCrazyMage are still around and doing great, the moron known as 'Alex Peters' has thankfully vanished.
ROBCPW1 - ROB, who explained that his nick stood for 'Robotic Online Bigot' was the online definition of a Homophobe's Homophobe. It was about this time that I really came to appreciate Big Al (at that time known as Asmodeus/The Squiggly Dr. X). This in spite of the fact that Big Al and some of the others flamed me heavily (probably because I didn't bother to read the FAQ and posted stuff without tags - and off topic to various threads - and generally didn't add anything useful to the group at the time). Big Al owned ROB - no two ways about. ROB would post some huge homophobic rant and Alister would destroy him with single line like... "You fancy me, don't you?" It left ROB without a single intelligent come-back. Hilarious! And very useful. Why? Because Al and other regulars would just blast idiots out of the water BEFORE they got the idea that it was 'OK' to act like a constant tard around here filling the news group with off topic and generally useless crap. This made it possible to actually find the useful stuff here.
Howd Rywd (or some similar misspelling of How Rude) - this moron, apparently a native English speaker, couldn't post a complete, comprehensible, properly punctuated sentence if his life depended on it. After being ridiculed by various people (The Grammar Nazis (tm) had a field day with this one) Rywd's posts varied between badly spelled threats and insults like "I hop you all get kiked off a clif" to pleas for help - often all in the same post like his now Legendary "What hav I dun Rong?" thread. (To this day I still wish I'd saved the 'Rywd to English' translation someone did of his 'dun Rong' post. I nearly pissed myself laughing, and laughed so long my ribs hurt for days afterwards. If anyone has this - please please send me a copy!)
(Man - I miss the Grammar Nazis! While I hated English and Composition in school, I loved to read. As a result, in spite of the fact I have a high reading comprehension, my spelling and punctuation skills are atrocious. I often have to snag my dictionary and look things up. Why go to all the trouble - after all, it's only use-net? Because I was 'schooled' [and thankfully so] by the Grammar Nazis. I was rather embarrassed when people like Big Al started posting spelling and grammar [or grammer as I used to put it] corrections to my posts. At first I was pissed and I thought "What a bunch of mean spirited SOB's." But then it finally dawned on me that it isn't just what you post, but how you post that greatly influences how much credibility you carry on the use-net.
Using poor punctuation, spelling and generally bad grammar is the use- net's equivalent of walking around with your pant's zipper open - no one is going to take you seriously. I'm grateful to the RGMW Grammar Nazis for being kind enough and persistent enough to finally pound that clue through my thick skull.)
Ron "Buy My Shit!" BoneYank (his last name honestly was Bonyank or something similar.) - This moron spammed the group with ebay ads for crappy stuff and was drilled for it. So what does he do? He gets fired up and posts yet more ads with the basic attitude of 'I don't care if you don't like it - buy my shit anyway.' Needless to say this went over with the group like a lead balloon. Hence the 'Ron BoneYank School Of Advertising' was born.
Undoubtedly it seems to many that the RGMW is a harsh realm. The regulars blast even the slightest infraction of the FAQ with scathing flames in many cases. Other times the regulars themselves break the rules and do the very things that they sooften deride others for doing. People seem to think of the various use-net forums as polite, well moderated town council halls. Many of them are - BUT THE RGMW ISN'T ONE OF THEM! The most effective way to view this group and navigate its various features is to view it more like a rowdy Pub (or for the Americans - think of it as "Bob's Country Bunker" [BCB] from the Blues Brothers movie). If you as a stranger or relatively unknown individual walked into a Pub and yelled out "Hey Tards! Buy me a beer!" or into BCBs and yelled "Country Music Sucks!" Most certainly your going to get Flamed - the use-net's equivalent of 'throwing beer bottles and pummeling the offender' in question. If you repeated that sort of behavior, undoubtedly the establishment will do it's best to make you miserable and run you off. It's the same here. Think about it. But it also bears pointing out that if you started hanging out at the local Pub/BCB and got to know the regulars, asked some polite questions, and even bought a few rounds (which in use-net terms is going out of your way to make and/or share cool stuff - like Philip Bowls recent Eldar Fluff) then eventually you could walk in, make the above offending statements and NOT get badly abused by the establishment. Why? Because you've built up some credibility with the regulars. They know you to generally be a person who is helpful or at least friendly. Some them would probably flip you off, others would laugh, and a few will probably buy you a beer anyway knowing that you're just having a bad day or letting off steam.
The whole "Leech!" issue. Many newbies never have a bit of trouble fitting in here - the really bright ones even ask for the FAQ link before posting other stuff. Others seem doomed to an eternity of flames from the day their first post arrives. It often isn't what you ask for/say, but rather who you ask and how you ask for it/say it that lands one in hot water here. I'd be lying if I said I never asked for or copied any GW material off the net. I can surely understand the desire to save some money on a hobby that's very expensive - you think you have a pet pev about GW? Think about the regulars who have been in this hobby for ages. There was a time when $30 US got you 30 multi-pose plastic marines or Orcs, or a boat load of IG and when Land Raiders came 2 to a box for far less than a single one costs now. (Sigh.) We ALL have our pet pevs here. I can understand personally. It sucks for example when you by a new Land Raider Crusader only to discover that:
- The Model doesn't come with the rules for it's use in the game especially considering the price of the model (in Second Ed. they'd include a nicely made full color 'datafax' on heavy card stock with the models. And even Forge World was including the stats with their special resin kits for use in the game - double sigh.)
- The rules are only available in a Chapter Approved type of article in a single White Dwarf issue.
- GW doesn't have that back issue for sale any more.
- None of the 'local' (in my case a 30 minute & 1 hour drive to the nearest hobby shops that sell GW stuff) have the issue in question.
And...
- GW has just made all the Online sites that were previously OK'd to host Chapter Approved stuff suddenly remove all that content because they're going to 'sell all that info' (again) in a 'Chapter Approved' codex at an undefined later date.
Rather frustrating in light of the cash I just spent, aye?
So, in light of the fact that many of the regulars have at some point in their posting history either 'leeched' stuff, or have helped others to 'leech' stuff, why do so many of the newbies get flamed to the Nth degree for doing the same? The answer is pretty simple when one thinks about it a bit. First of all, many of the regulars are hard working people who aren't afraid to earn the money they need to legally purchase the items they want. When Newbies and leeches claim "it's just a codex - what's the big deal?", they're dead wrong. It isn't just, 'I buy a codex and you get it for free.' It's:
I pay for a codex. I pay for a computer. I pay for a scanner. I pay for an Internet service provider. I spend my time scanning umpteen pages of stuff for someone else. I spend my time organizing the materials into a usable form for someone else. I spend my time sending the results of all my effort to 'Joe Nameless' or posting it to the net on behalf of 'Joe Nameless.'
And the net result of my efforts? At best, a highly fulfilling "Thanks Dude" if any reply at all, and a possible chance to be sued by the rightful copy right owners - costing me YET MORE of my time and money, and to potentially loose my Internet account. All this for some person I've never seen/spoken with before and will likely as not never see/hear from again? Wow, what a bargain! Of course when this is pointed out in polite or often not so polite terms, along come other plebes who shout "You're just pissed cause you paid for it." Duh! I'm not pissed cause I paid for it - that's called honesty. I'm pissed cause you think it's cool for every electronic panhandler to stick out their hands and shout "Gimme Gimme Gimme!" You have to be one selfish and highly clueless / self-absorbed individual not to get this simple concept. Yet the group is consistently inundated by this kind of thoroughly annoying and thoughtless behavior!
"But, but, but some of the regulars post/share copyrighted stuff." the newbies are likely sputtering. Which prompts me to say "Yeah, no kidding." Lets return to the Pub/Bar analogy again. If I'm a newbie and I walk into the local Pub, and yell out "I want beer, but I don't want to/can't pay for it. Gimme, gimme, gimme!" Who really thinks that the newbie will be met with anything but contempt and open hostility? The usual social response to that is "Hey, people in hell want ice water too. Hows it feel to want?" On the other hand suppose I'm a long term regular at the Pub. I've bought a few rounds, shared some jokes, and generally been friendly or helpful to the other regulars, just because I could. (On the RGMW this would be the equivalent of posting new scenarios, helping with army/troop wargear selections, answering rules questions when possible, offering painting and modeling tips, sharing fluff, writing entertaining battle reports, coming up with helpful house rules, etc.) Now if I came into the Pub and was saying "Yeah, I'd like a beer, and a bite to eat, but my budget's tapped out." Would anyone really be surprised if one of the other regulars bought me a beer without expecting me to pay them back later? Probably not. These kinds of people are called 'friends'. People that help you not because they expect something in return, but because they know you to be a worthwhile person and they can lend a hand.
IF YOU WANT FRIENDS HERE - BE A FRIEND. Put some time and effort into posting things that benefit others. And don't expect to not get flamed anyway. When you post opinions, others are bound to have ones that are at odds with yours. Deal with it. After all, the occasional (not constant) fray is what makes the local Pub interesting at times. Regulars here that I've had heated arguments with have still been exceptionally helpful. Big Al has answered tons of rules questions, and posted some great stuff like his 'Warp Vermin' (skaven conversion) army list for 40K at my & other folks request. Philp Bowles, Vampy, RTM, Qarb, Maka, Smithdoerr, and loads of others to numerous to list have all contributed vast amounts of their time and talent here. You won't agree with all of the regulars, but they have every right to be respected for their unselfish contributions to the group.
Flaming, foul language & the Regulars. It seems that every 4 - 6 months some 'upstanding newbie' complains to the group that the flaming is brutal and needless, and that the foul language is detrimental to small kids. As for the foul language - this is an adult news group. "But GW sells its games to young kids..." Yeah, and some countries sell alcohol to very young children too, but what parent there (with an above room temperature I.Q.) would send their children unaccompanied to an adult bar and NOT expect them to be exposed to foul language and/or adult humor? If you wouldn't send your child to a Pub or Bar - don't send them here. If you want to let your children benefit from this group, then take an active role and be a parent. There's this nifty do it yourself censoring tool called a "Kill File" and this other tool called 'cut & paste' where you can save the best and snip the rest. Wow! How handy is that? If your kids have questions - post them here, and then cut and paste the replies you find useful/acceptable and print them for the kids. I do it all the time. My 10 year old step son, and 12 yr old step daughter like GW games, but I surely wouldn't just point their news reader here and say "Have at it kids."
As for the flaming - If you think the regulars are to harsh on the newbies THEN YOU HAVEN'T BEEN HERE LONG ENOUGH! I'll say it again (it's that important) The Regulars provide a valuable service by flaming the idiots, trolls, and newbies to lazy to get off their butts and read the FAQ or use a simple web search engine. "Why can't they just post a polite helpful reply?" Because I can honestly say that being polite DOES NOT get through to the ones who need it most. Having been on this news group for 4 1/2 to 5 years, I have seen a virtual non-stop urine parade of losers that have flooded the group with pure garbage. Alex Peters appeared, constantly posted stupid shit, ignored polite replies or responded with insults - that is until the Regulars like Big Al, Evil Homer, Meridian, et al. Flamed him to a crisp and uncovered his lies. And then, surprise surprise, he vanished! (Thank the Regulars.) When ROBCPW1 appeared, the crap flood continued - that is until the Regulars plowed him under a mountain of flames and it became apparent that he was nothing more than the 'butt' of Big Al's jokes. And then, surprise surprise, he vanished! (Thank the Regulars - again.) Anyone else starting to see a pattern here? The list of idiots that have stunk up this news group is long (Rowd, BoneYank, Firewalker9, Xander, Chaplin X, and a hoard of others to unworthy to mention.) The fact that they're not still posting here IS A DIRECT RESULT of the Regulars. "So, what harm do they do by posting useless stuff?" A lot! It's truly horrendous trying to find any on topic material and especially to follow specific threads when every newbie around is posting off topic replies, asking for free stuff, starting new threads with similar topics, spamming 'For sale' ads umpteen times a day to the group, and not using tags so people can filter the list of things they download. Add to that the fact that many people on this news list DO NOT HAVE UNLIMITED HOURS INTERNET ACCESS! People in the UK and else where often have to PAY BY THE MINUTE for their Internet access. They often have to download all the articles from the news group, and then read them off line. Imagine how pissed off you'd be if you had to pay big $$$ to download a bunch of useless stuff, or worse, someone posts pictures here that take extra long to download on a non-binaries group like this one is. But undoubtedly, the greatest loss is when otherwise helpful posters & regulars tire of all the troll and newbie B.S. and vanish. Then the rest of us loose another source of cool ideas, good advice, potential answers and insights, AND IT PISSES US OFF! The list of good folks who've thrown in the towel is long and depressing, so I won't attempt to name them all.
Now (maybe) you begin to get an idea of why the Regulars are so defensive and at times heavy handed. They've worked hard to make it a place where you can have some fun, find new stuff, get serious questions answered by folks with a lot of experience, post the odd 'what if I do this' idea, and not have everything drown out in a flood of trash. It is not unreasonable or unexpected that they'd fight to protect what they've built. Understand this and you'll get along as well as can be expected here.
Thanks for listening if you were brave enough to read all of this.
Myrmidon
